this is real (I did it myself)
The next post is pretty much done, but I wanted to send out this quick note before moving on. The previous post revealed a lot of things that I neglected to make clear. My fault. Sorry.
First and foremost, the last post was not meant to settle the question on slavery and the Bible. I just wanted to get out what the Bible actually says about it. The most I wanted to accomplish toward addressing the issue was to let people see a clear trajectory within Scripture wherein no part is inherently contradictory to the parts before or after it, no more than a seed is contradictory in nature or form to a fully blossomed flower. I also wanted to give a sense of the complexity of the issue. In every passage that lies out even the most comprehensive sets of morality and ethics for the Israelite people, you never see slavery there. It was never an action that was consistently seen as something moral. It’s not a freedom that the Israelites are free to use whenever they desire; it’s used sporadically, meaning that there must be something else going on beyond some explicit commentary by God on the moral nature of slavery. The New Testament is clear that the crucifixion of Christ was something that was foreordained and ultimately brought about by God, but this neither expunges the moral responsibility of the people that actually did it, nor says that God is all about crucifixion and thinks it is “morally neutral” or “ethically okay”. He clearly thinks it is wrong and evil, and yet He clearly ordained it, allowed it, and used it to bring about his promised redemption to the world.
Secondly, as I said in a previous comment on the previous post, I am not trying to defend the “Moral Law proof” for God’s existence. I do not make much of “proofs” of God’s existence. They are each inadequate in various ways. They are sort of compelling taken as a whole, but either way, conversion and, by extension, Christianity itself, is ultimately a spiritual enterprise with intellectual implications rather than an intellectual enterprise with spiritual implications.
Thirdly, it was said by one commenter that my arguments are obviously weak because I have to write so many blog posts in defense of them. Two responses: the first reason why so much is being written is that I am a very young writer. This means that there is still an arrogance and immaturity in my writing, resulting in a lack of brevity in my prose. This results in really long blog series that no one ever reads because they are not concise and they use unnecessarily complicated phrases like “lack of brevity in my prose”.
The second reason should be clear from all my former interactions with the accusing party (Larry). When it comes to the Bible and problems with it posed by atheists, the problem is never that one issue. Let’s assume I could dramatically prove to any of you that your perspective on this issue of slavery in the Bible is wrong and the Biblical and Christian idea on it is right. What then? You remove that tool in your tool belt against Christianity and pull out another. And then we write more Facebook notes and blogs. There is no individual argument or set of arguments that makes you all atheists. The problem is spiritual. You disbelieve in your heart first and come up with reasons second (even you, Christopher. I know you’ll counter this statement and think it is the height of arrogance for me to make a judgment on you like this, but though I may believe that you intellectually believed the tenets of Christianity, I cannot and do not see any evidence that your faith and belief at the heart level was anything genuine. Perhaps you got into apologetics in the first place to try and provide you with the faith that you sensed was lacking; only to find your apostasy).
I am writing none of this to defend the Bible. Or Christianity. Or my opinion. I don’t care what you think about the topic of slavery and the Bible, nor what you think of my opinion. My main concern is to see you joined to the One for Whom your soul was made. The One in Whom is rest. The One in Whom is found the wisdom of wisdoms that makes those foolish who think themselves wise. My main concern is to see you become a Christian. And this topic of slavery and the Bible is not the hinge around which that decision turns. But, what all of you have said about this topic is symptomatic of an entire worldview and perspective on things in which may be found genuine and sincere intellectual roadblocks to faith. That is why probably 80% of what I have to write and say in this blog series has very little explicitly to say about slavery. The things can be applied to slavery, but I hope to go deeper with all of you (as I always have), to try and get at the assumptions about faith, the Bible, philosophy, and theology you all have clearly articulated that I believe are fundamentally flawed and inconsistent with the Biblical account of these things. I want you to disagree and rebel against true Christianity, not your caricatures and straw men.
And that is the reason why I have so much to say. I want to see you all either converted or made aware of your outright rebellion against God existing prior to your intellectual reasons and ultimately, only clear articulations of the precious Gospel I adore can possibly do of any of that. I am praying for you all.
the long way home 
I wonder how a thing could have a “trajectory” if it always remained in the same place. And if the stance it takes changes, as would be required for a trajectory to exist, then how could it not be contradictory? It is certainly possible that the wording starts-out ambiguous and then becomes less ambiguous… in some sense that might be a trajectory. But if it had flaws in its writing like that then it certainly wasn’t written by God. As for the claim that a seed’s nature or form doesn’t contradict a blossomed flower, I’m not entirely sure what that means. Does a fire “contradict” ice? Does the sky “contradict” the ground? I’m trying to undertand what, precisely, the term “contradiction” means to you. Because so far as I can tell, no two actual physical objects “contradict” each other (in the technical sense, which is alleged mutual-presence despite mutual-exclusiveness) so the metaphor doesn’t illustrate or communicate ANYTHING about contradiction.
With this said though, don’t feel bad. Whomever claimed that your “arguments are obviously weak” because you “have to write so many blog posts in defense of them” is pretty damn confused too. Because first off, unless you are being held hostage by some very quirky people who are threatening to kill you if you don’t, then you don’t have to write ANY posts. Secondly, despite appearances, reality is hideously complex and so in practice all worthwhile arguments will leave room for critique and defense. If there is no room, then your argument is probably trivial. Thirdly, how much defense and attack there is on an argument is going to be more a matter of how CONTROVERSIAL it is. And obviously, how controversial an argument is has nothing to do with how much sense it makes – only how much people enjoy the implications.
As for the claim “You disbelieve in your heart first and come up with reasons second” I am afraid that you are probably right. Unfortunately, this is also moot. Whether I am arguing with you because I don’t think you make sense or because I am a bully and get self-esteem from tearing others to shreds is irrelevant to how much sense our arguments make. The fact that the vast majority of people only employ reasoning to justify their views is sad. But that is human nature, and it isn’t just atheists or theists or agnostics that are like that. And luckily, anyone who is genuinely questioning these things can still learn from the rationalizations of those who aren’t.
As for your motives in writing all this… you are obviously upset and being defensive. You should own up to that, and not try to deny it – I’m sure that “Larry” and “Chris” know it, and from the sounds of them you will only make them grin if you deny it. And I would, but shouldn’t, assume to know why you are so upset. So I won’t say anything (further) about cognitive dissonance… but if you aren’t familiar with Psychology then you should look it up.
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fire is the opposite of ice, the sky is the opposite of the gorund, but a seed is not the “opposite” of a fully blossomed flower. it’s the early form of it. the latter form is VERY different from the first, but that does not make that first form “errored”. perhaps human devlopment would have been easier to understand? just because a person must be an emryo before it can be an adult does not represent an “inadequacy” or “ineffectivenss” or “problem” that there is a less developed earlier state.
as far as “contradiction” goes: i am responding to criticism that the new testament would be the only one that i could possibly show wasn’t pro-slavery, but even if i did, that would only prove “contradictions” in the Bible concerning it. so, i say there is no more of a “contradiction” there than a development of a seed-form idea that you see shadows of in the old testament and see fulfilled in the new.
motive: the original posts by larry that inspired all this happened weeks ago. this isn’t being written in quick knee-jerk reaction anger. it has been calmly pondered, researched, and given thought to. like i’ve said before, i think there will be few, if any, people that will have their position swayed at all because of these writings-much less the friends they are primarily written to. i’ve never heard them cede a single point about anything, and i don’t expect them to start now. i am in service of only two things: truth and a desire to see them converted. that’s it. there are no grudges, no ager, no pain or frustration. i will be able to sleep easily regardless of their (or your) response to this-no matter the congnitive dissonance that is assumed upon theists. as an old pastor of mine used to say: “every worldview is ultimately circular, it just depends on whose circle you’re in”.
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Paul, I’m going to be brief here. Everything you have said in this blog can be easily applied to you as well.
I will quote you and capitalize the changes.
“When it comes to the Bible and problems with it posed by CHRISTIANS and SCRIPTURE, the problem is never that one issue. Let’s assume I could dramatically prove to any of you that your perspective on this issue of slavery in the Bible is RIGHT and the Biblical and Christian idea on it is WRONG. What then? You remove that tool in your tool belt against ATHEISM and pull out another. And then we write more Facebook notes and blogs. There is no individual argument or set of arguments that makes you all CHRISTIANS. The problem is spiritual. You BELIEVE in your heart first and come up with reasons second.”
This is why a revision of biblical slavery from you is necessary to fit with liberal post-enlightenment theology; to conform with modern societies’ views and morals.
I think I have done an OK job at countering your arguments regarding what the bible says about slavery in my response to your first blog. I did this, using only apologetic arguments from other christians. Not atheist caricature. This I think is evident, although you won’t admit it.
I do not think you can, without being “intellectually dishonest”, rebut the literal word of what the bible says about slavery.
But alas, Paul, you have to move on to other matters it seems; as I had suspected and predicted and as you yourself said you must (“That is why probably 80% of what I have to write and say in this blog series has very little explicitly to say about slavery.”)
It seems your very prophecy regarding this: “Let’s assume I could dramatically prove to any of you that your perspective on this issue of slavery in the Bible is wrong and the Biblical and Christian idea on it is right. What then? You remove that tool in your tool belt against Christianity and pull out another.”
It now seems you are “pulling out another” in a self fulfilling prophecy that ironically you accuse atheists of being culpable of, but that I have shown by switching your quote above, that christians are just as likely to do.
Now,
Paul, you said: ” My main concern is to see you joined to the One for Whom your soul was made. The One in Whom is rest. The One in Whom is found the wisdom of wisdoms that makes those foolish who think themselves wise. My main concern is to see you become a Christian.”
If this is the true reason for writing these posts, you can save yourself some time instead of wasting it trying to “save” my “soul.” Because it would literally take an act of god to reconvert me back into a christian.
I ask you the same, if my conversations with you result in a seed that would lead to your deconversion, would you admit to it? I’m not claiming I am going to deconvert you in any sense, but would you have the deep ceded honesty to throw away your faith and belief if evidence points you elsewhere? You seem to claim that atheists avoid the evidence, but what about christians?
You said yourself: “conversion and, by extension, Christianity itself, is ultimately a spiritual enterprise with intellectual implications rather than an intellectual enterprise with spiritual implications.”
So… in essence this is really about faith, with no evidence.
I don’t think that we (atheists, or myself specifically) are conducting a “caricature” or building “straw men” as you are claiming, regarding christianity (although it’s funny that it seems that whenever christians are stuck in a pickle, they fall back on this argument).
I think it is completely the other way around, because Paul, it seems that my arguments, 1. have stemmed from apologists and the bible itself. And 2. from conversations with OTHER CHRISTIANS.
If you are claiming that apologetics is now a caricature of christianity the same with other christians, then you have to question the validity of 1 Peter 3:15. William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, Robert Dabney, Calvin, Luther are they all wrong?
I once again say this, if re-interpreting the bible is what is required in order to defend your faith, then you have to question the validity of the bible in and of itself. I think the caricature built here is from you Paul. Everyone builds a caricature of christianity as one sees fit for their own lives. You cannot claim to KNOW the true meaning of god’s word, or this would make you the second coming of jesus. ARE YOU the second coming of Jesus?
I ask you this, how many people in past history and currently follow your specific theology? The very reason WHY we have to have these conversations is reason enough to doubt the bible and scriptures. The very reasons WHY you disagree with your fellow christians is reason enough to doubt the veracity of the bible and scripture.
This is the point you seem to not understand. You have your views of christianity and the tenets of what the scriptures are supposed to say, and so do all the other christians who disagree with you, never mind the atheists and never mind the religious tenets of the other 3000 plus gods ever conceived throughout history. This is a problem within your own christian religion. Too many sections, too many divisions, to much blood has been shed to defend a god that is supposed to be benevolent in history and in the future.
But let’s move on, I am very curious and anxious to see what you will be writing next.
Cheers.
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I thought I was going to be brief, I apologize.
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One more thing, this is in response to Paul’s comment above mine. If Paul looses sleep over this.. then we have a problem. I think Paul is simply making an argument from his beliefs. And yes this did happen weeks ago. Unlike myself, who always shoot myself in the foot by shooting from the hip, Paul takes thought in his responses. I think this is a healthy conversation. And one that needs to be had not just on this blog but all over the world.
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Pauls typical segment of Christian propaganda….
“First and foremost, the last post was not meant to settle the question on slavery and the Bible. I just wanted to get out what the Bible actually says about it.”
Apostate response….
This is not true at all. You can’t as a Christian allow the Bible to speak for itself. You have no desire to simply let the Bible speak rather you have to give a commentary alongside it to make it more palatable to people in a post-abolitionist society.
Paul’s response….
The most I wanted to accomplish toward addressing the issue was to let people see a clear trajectory within Scripture wherein no part is inherently contradictory to the parts before or after it, no more than a seed is contradictory in nature or form to a fully blossomed flower.”
Apostate response….
The Bible is very contradictory & despite your best efforts all the contradictions can’t be reconciled.
Paul’s words….
“I also wanted to give a sense of the complexity of the issue.”
Apostate words…
The issue is very simple yet the Christians desire to make it more complex than it truly is. This is typical of the Christian apologetic enterprise. They love long words, latin terms & mystical hocus-pocus to give the impression of an intellectual credibility for their faith that is lacking.
Paul’s delusion….
“In every passage that lies out even the most comprehensive sets of morality and ethics for the Israelite people, you never see slavery there.”
Apostate’s proclamation of the truth…
Slavery is all over the place. My rebuttal is in the making. This is the exact type of dishonesty that makes me hate Christianity with a passion. Christianity is dishonest because it takes responsibility for its accomplishments but blames the followers for the disasters instead of taking responsibility for it too. Examples abound that Christians refuse to acknowledge.
Paul…
” It was never an action that was consistently seen as something moral. It’s not a freedom that the Israelites are free to use whenever they desire; it’s used sporadically, meaning that there must be something else going on beyond some explicit commentary by God on the moral nature of slavery.”
Apostate’s response…
If it was never an action consistently seen as moral then it was seen at times as being moral & others as immoral. Schizophrenic Jesus is writing the Bible. Polygamy is sometimes moral or immoral? The God of the Bible changed his mind on moral issues throughout the Scriptures & polygamy is one of those issues too.
Paul…
The New Testament is clear that the crucifixion of Christ was something that was foreordained and ultimately brought about by God, but this neither expunges the moral responsibility of the people that actually did it, nor says that God is all about crucifixion and thinks it is “morally neutral” or “ethically okay”. He clearly thinks it is wrong and evil, and yet He clearly ordained it, allowed it, and used it to bring about his promised redemption to the world.
Apostates response….
It’s very clear how the crucifixion was part of God’s plan & how it was supposed to give him glory but how was slavery supposed to give him glory???? How does slavery practiced according to His Word give him glory? How do these barbaric rules given in his Scriptures give him glory?
There is a very big difference here & it is the fact that Satan’s supposed children murdered Christ but the children of Jesus/Jehovah were practicing this slavery we are discussing. God commanded this slavery. This is …..”Thus saith the Lord.” This is not “Thus saith the fallible Hebrew prophets” we are debating. Anytime the prophets spoke or Moses spoke then Jews understood it to be “Thus saith the Lord.”
Paul…
“Secondly, as I said in a previous comment on the previous post, I am not trying to defend the “Moral Law proof” for God’s existence. I do not make much of “proofs” of God’s existence. They are each inadequate in various ways. They are sort of compelling taken as a whole, but either way, conversion and, by extension, Christianity itself, is ultimately a spiritual enterprise with intellectual implications rather than an intellectual enterprise with spiritual implications.”
Apostates response…
You can’t have it both ways with the intellectual realm Paul. This is my problem with Christian apologetics & why I think it’s a very dishonest game. See, Christians want to play apologetics when it can help their cause but immediately desire to retreat from apologetic battle when their flimsy apologetic arguments fail the test of skeptical scrutiny. You’ve admitted it yourself that the “proofs for God’s existence” are inadequate. This is a major part of the apologetics enterprise & some of these failed proof arguments like the teleological & cosmological arguments are implied in the Bible. Thus the Bible’s integrity & these arguments stand together & fall together. In fact, Greg Bahnsen the famed Presuppositional Christian apologist from Westminster Theological Seminary in “Always Ready” spoke about how apologetics & theology were so much more intertwined in the early church & the Bible than today. If your apologetics don’t resist the skeptical onslaught then your theology will not either.
Let’s take a look at 1 Peter 3:15 “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts to be ready always to give an answer/apologia/logical defense for the……. reason/logos-greek word we derive logic from…..of the hope that is within you.”
The fact that the supposed author Peter commands this under the inspiration of Christ to his children implies it can be done successfully with the help of the Holy Spirit. What God would command his children to appeal to such tools for the purpose of witnessing, evangelizing, & defending the faith if they are inadequate?
This begs the question as to what exactly are the apologetic tools commanded by this Apostle. A careful look at the Apologetics Study Bible & Defenders Study Bible vindicate this understanding of the text. Also, the church fathers of the early church, church doctors, & theologians in our time today recognize that apologetics was intellectual.
This means that the Bible has propelled the faith you came to embrace for intellectual reasons into the realm of intellectual combat. YOUR FAITH MUST STAND ITS GROUND & WIN because the Bible not the skeptic made it an intellectual issue.
If your faith fails to withstand intellectual scrutiny
then by the standard the Bible not the skeptic established then you must apostasize. Also, every apologist in one breath will tell you the Bible commands a reasonable faith not a blind faith. Since, this is the case if your faith fails to be apologetically defensible then you must leave or Christianity is the most dishonest religion around for daring to appeal to the intellect in one breath while hoping it is convenient but immediately dismissing the intellect when realizing it is destructive to the cause of Christ.
The fact that Christian apologetics has failed for 2,000 years is a testimony that the Bible is wrong.
How do we know that it has failed? We know because the apologetics enterprise has evolved & adapted for 2,000 years while dropping some arguments, modifying others & creating new ones. The apologetics in defense of the Bible should have been true from the beginning & unchanging. Arguments the early father used should be so air tight & solid that they are still used 2,000 years later. That’s what we should expect from those supposedly given a mouth none can gainsay nor resist. That’s what we should expect from those believers entrusted with the faith once delivered unto all the saints they should earnestly contend for. Unfortunately, for Christianity that has not been seen which gives the skeptic more ammunition to use against Christianity.
Paul….
“Thirdly, it was said by one commenter that my arguments are obviously weak because I have to write so many blog posts in defense of them.”
Apostate response…
Very true statement. The issue is simple & the Bible is a manmade rather than God inspired book. The Christian apologetic enterprise thrives off the appearance of intellectual credibility. The arguments you are presenting in defense of the Bible are obviously very weak.
Paul…
“Two responses: the first reason why so much is being written is that I am a very young writer. This means that there is still an arrogance and immaturity in my writing, resulting in a lack of brevity in my prose. This results in really long blog series that no one ever reads because they are not concise and they use unnecessarily complicated phrases like “lack of brevity in my prose”.”
Apostate…
No problem. Everyone is working on the same thing.
Paul….
“The second reason should be clear from all my former interactions with the accusing party (Larry). When it comes to the Bible and problems with it posed by atheists, the problem is never that one issue. Let’s assume I could dramatically prove to any of you that your perspective on this issue of slavery in the Bible is wrong and the Biblical and Christian idea on it is right. What then? You remove that tool in your tool belt against Christianity and pull out another. And then we write more Facebook notes and blogs. There is no individual argument or set of arguments that makes you all atheists.”
Apostate…
False. There are several arguments of an atheistic worldview that lead us to this position. We are only agreed on the fact that it isn’t just one argument. Your confidence in your faith definitely doesn’t depend upon one apologetic argument either. Now, before you go leaning upon your relationship with your invisible friend for the ultimate support then consider this……………You have commited a very intellectually dishonest manuever. If the apologetic arguments don’t ultimately convince you & provide a support for your faith then you must not use them to provide a potential support for a convert. VERY DISHONEST.
The idea is that you can cleverly use these apologetic arguments with the hope of removing an obstacle to their faith, stopping their mouths or convince them that the most reasonable thing to be done is place saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once, they have put their saving faith in Jesus then the intellect no longer matters because they’ve had an emotional experience that becomes the true reason for their faith & the apologetics are just a tool.
Since, we both know that apologetics will not persuade you one way or the other about Jesus then why are you trying to use them on others????
There’s something very duplicitious about this. Jesus would smile on such efforts but honest freethinkers frown on such duplicity.
Paul….
“The problem is spiritual. You disbelieve in your heart first and come up with reasons second (even you, Christopher. I know you’ll counter this statement and think it is the height of arrogance for me to make a judgment on you like this, but though I may believe that you intellectually believed the tenets of Christianity, I cannot and do not see any evidence that your faith and belief at the heart level was anything genuine. Perhaps you got into apologetics in the first place to try and provide you with the faith that you sensed was lacking; only to find your apostasy).”
Christopher’s response….
This is Christian propaganda needing a good thrashing. It’s time that it received it. I believed the lies of Jesus Christ & his diabolical cult for 17 years & kept believing for noble reasons while it damaged my life. Converted at the age of 11 & found out about apologetics later. Apologetics was a huge encouragement to me because it gave me the answers to defend the faith that I lacked. Every Christian wants to have good intelligent reasons for believing in Jesus. Over the years I kept reading apologetic material & defending the faith in probably hundreds of debates with the hopes of converting others to Christ.
However, a problem arose & that was that I learned too much to stay a Christian. The intellectual bankruptcy of Christianity & apologetics forced me to deconvert. My unbelief did not come first because of a fallen sin nature that you brittle Calvinistic & Biblical theology desperately desires you to believe rather unbelief came after the intellectual arguments. Apostasy would have came & began without ever having picked up a skeptic book. That’s not what a Christian wants to hear but it’s the truth. The first skeptic book I read was “Atheist Universe” by David Mills about a year or so ago. Have been reading plenty of skeptic books since this time that have merely added fuel to the skeptical fire & provided some extra arguments but the apostasy came from learning Christian sources & reading the diabolical Bible.
“on the tool belt note” you brought up it’s obvious you’ve been reading some Greg Bahnsen. Trust me, I read Greg Bahnsen & am ready to rumble with any style of apologetics you bring to this discussion. This apostate is merely sharpening his battle axe & preparing his fiery/poisonous darts for combat against a supposed saint of Christ.
On a personal note, you don’t know anything about my life Paul. You don’t know anything about the sacrifices I made for believing this poison that calls itself a Gospel. Your judgement is arrogant but it’s the result of your brittle faith called Christianity & Calvinism. Your theology requires you to believe certain things about me or like a house built of playing cards it will crumble. Your house or the Lord’s house has already crumbled it’s just time for you to awaken to this reality.
About evidence I was a Christian…….Of course, you don’t see it now because I’m opposed to that poisonous cult. Why would you see the evidence? You would have seen it if fellowshipping at Bible studies, hanging out at prayer meetings, attending church, evangelizing & fellowshipping in the Word with me years ago. This is absurd for you to say. Besides, who cares what you think? You are not a spiritual authority & the book you believe in from the supposed God you believe in is not a spiritual authority either. This is the source of such absurdity.
Paul…
“I am writing none of this to defend the Bible. Or Christianity. Or my opinion. I don’t care what you think about the topic of slavery and the Bible, nor what you think of my opinion.”
Infidel response…
Then why bother with the conversation at all?????
Why bother defending the faith for the purpose of converting the lost in hopes of bringing them to Christ?
Why bother learning about this topic?
If you are not trying to defend the Bible then write about this at all when you should just be praying for your God to regenerate us?????
Paul………
“My main concern is to see you joined to the One for Whom your soul was made. The One in Whom is rest. The One in Whom is found the wisdom of wisdoms that makes those foolish who think themselves wise. My main concern is to see you become a Christian.”
Infidel response…
We already know the same old Christian song & the same old Christian dance. However, we want to see you become an infidel that’s commited to destroying superstitious cults like Christianity. 🙂
Thanks for preaching the foolishness of the Apostle Paul to us who despised Greek philosophy because it would inevitably lead the sheep to become critical thinkers that would apostasize because they realized Christianity was wrong. The Bible’s condemnation of philosophy & the wisdom of this world is very cultic indeed. Christians will appeal to these condemned sources when helpful but dismiss them when inconvenient. Thanks for showing us the duplicity of the apostle Paul again.
Paul…
“And this topic of slavery and the Bible is not the hinge around which that decision turns.”
Skeptical response…
For someone tired of Ray Comfort you sure are sounding like him. You are also sounding like Greg Bahnsen, John MacArthur & Josh McDowell among others. There isn’t just one issue which we’ve already established but slavery is a very serious issue.
Paul…
“But, what all of you have said about this topic is symptomatic of an entire worldview and perspective on things in which may be found genuine and sincere intellectual roadblocks to faith. That is why probably 80% of what I have to write and say in this blog series has very little explicitly to say about slavery. The things can be applied to slavery, but I hope to go deeper with all of you (as I always have), to try and get at the assumptions about faith, the Bible, philosophy, and theology you all have clearly articulated that I believe are fundamentally flawed and inconsistent with the Biblical account of these things. I want you to disagree and rebel against true Christianity, not your caricatures and straw men.”
Infidel response…
We already disagree with real Christianity. It’s you the salad bar Christian that is giving us caricatures & strawmen to fire at while we are firing at real Christianity that you don’t want to acknowledge. We know what real Christianity is but the question is do you????? You don’t have to worry about whether or not I know the real thing from the false. Many of the preachers that I learned from would consider you an apostate wolf while they’d consider me an apostate skeptic that they could atleast respect as an honest opponent.
Paul…
And that is the reason why I have so much to say. I want to see you all either converted or made aware of your outright rebellion against God existing prior to your intellectual reasons and ultimately, only clear articulations of the precious Gospel I adore can possibly do of any of that. I am praying for you all.”
Infidel…
If we had a god to pray to then we would be praying for you to unplug from the Christian Delusion. There is a book by this name coming out soon by a former Christian apologist named John Loftus. You should check this book out.
Once again, you are trying to create a view of reality that is not true to reality. This is the world of Christianity for you. We don’t want any part of this world because we know it’s delusional & wrong.
Your appeal presupposes the truth of Christianity that is unwarranted despite what your Presuppositional apologists want you to believe.
We are angry at delusional cults like Christianity & Islam because they are destructive. We are not the evil hedonists the Bible desperately needs us to be hating a God that doesn’t exist.
Before you come to me with these apologetics then you had best be ready. I know probably every apologetic argument you bring up before it comes out of your mouth. While continuing to read Christian, Islamic & Jewish apologetics I will be reading the skeptics. It’s obvious you haven’t thoroughly read both sides so it’s obvious you will not speak with a mouth none can gainsay nor resist.
It’s important to note that Norman Geisler, RC Sproul, John Gerstner, Art Lindsley & most Christian apologists are vehemently opposed to the Presuppositional approach. If the best of your apologists dismiss it then why should you think a skeptic should embrace these flawed arguments held in disdain by so many of the best apologists?
Perhaps, I got into apologetics to find my apostasy. Ultimately, it led to it because apologetics are intellectually bankrupt when the Bible promised they would be intellectually credible. The faith was not lacking when first entering apologetics but I was eagerly desiring to lead others to Christ & didn’t want unbelievers to always leave me without an answer to their questions.
Once again, became a Christian before knowing about apologetics & had a powerful born-again experience exactly like so many other born-again Christians. Seriously, Paul many of us have been there & done that while having the t-shirts. On this note, we apostates don’t need your approval & do consider it callous & obnoxious for Christians like you to think for a moment that you know our hearts. Anybody that knows me well can tell you how much I sacrificed for the Kingdom of Christ. It would be surprising to find out if you have sacrificed as much. There are many areas we can cover regarding the poisonous effects of Jesus Christ in the life of yours truly but we can save that for a more personal time.
Conclusion….
Don’t take my irritation as sarcasm or an attack against you. The war is not with one still plugged into the matrix but with the matrix.
Someday, you might know what it’s like to be unplugged. You will have a much different perspective & be frustrated with yourself & others still plugged into the matrix.
You will be embarrassed, annoyed, irritated, depressed & shocked. Hopefully, you deconvert sooner rather than later because you don’t fully realize how much Christ impacts your life until leaving. Christianity in the words of Frank Schaeffer is…..”The Fifth Column of Insanity in this country.” That’s the son of Francis Schaeffer.
Regards friend.
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Almost forgot. My rebuttal is coming too. This conversation is between you, Larry & I since you put my name up there.
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“Apologetics was a huge encouragement to me because it gave me the answers to defend the faith that I lacked.”
referring to a lack of answers not faith in Christ.
“Your theology requires you to believe certain things about me or like a house built of playing cards it will crumble.”
The small type boxes made it difficult to keep the train of thought. Clarification….your theology desperately requires you to believe certain things about apostates or it will crumble like a house built of playing cards. Christians can’t believe the best about apostates & think they apostasized for noble & principled reasons. This is contrary to the faith. Unfortunately, most true apostates as opposed to backsliders leave for principled reasons. I would be glad to introduce you to several of them. They would like meeting you & providing a valuable support network of friends for you when you apostasize. If you are honest then it’s not a question of if but when you apostasize. If dishonest with yourself then you will remain part of the delusion for the rest of your life. 🙂
“If you are not trying to defend the Bible then write about this at all when you should just be praying for your God to regenerate us?????”
Insert a “why” after then & before write.
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Way to go Larry! Your responses are solid.
This motivates me to hurry up with my rebuttal to reinforce your rebuttal. Hopefully, we can reap a harvest with Paul & deconvert him for the glory of skepticism!
The Catholics exclaimed….
“For the greater glory of God!”
Skeptics counter…
“For the greater glory of Reason!”
The Protestants exclaim…
“To God Alone Be the Glory!”
Skeptics exclaim….
“To Reason/Science Alone Be the Glory!”
The Lord God of hosts says….
“Come let us reason together.” Jehovah will only advocate its use when helpful but when unhelpful his servants like Martin Luther will call reason “the devil’s whore” which typifies the true colors of Christianity. Of course, we are mistaken for taking the words of the great theologians & preachers of church history more seriously than the words of modern salad bar Christians.
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Paul…
” i’ve never heard them cede a single point about anything, and i don’t expect them to start now.”
Response to Paul…
No offense because this is not meant to be insulting but we haven’t ceded any points because you haven’t truly made any points. Our case is irrefutable & no arguments in favor of Christianity truly stand up to skeptical scrutiny.
Paul……
“i am in service of only two things: truth and a desire to see them converted. that’s it. there are no grudges, no ager, no pain or frustration. i will be able to sleep easily regardless of their (or your) response to this-no matter the congnitive dissonance that is assumed upon theists.”
as an old pastor of mine used to say: “every worldview is ultimately circular, it just depends on whose circle you’re in”.
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Hold on I accidentally pushed your submit content button to soon.
Paul…
” i’ve never heard them cede a single point about anything, and i don’t expect them to start now.”
Response to Paul…
No offense because this is not meant to be insulting but we haven’t ceded any points because you haven’t truly made any points. Our case is irrefutable & no arguments in favor of Christianity truly stand up to skeptical scrutiny. Of course, it’s polite social etiquette to cede points in discussions but this topic is about matters of eternal truth not social protocol.
Paul……
“i am in service of only two things: truth and a desire to see them converted. that’s it. there are no grudges, no ager, no pain or frustration. i will be able to sleep easily regardless of their (or your) response to this-no matter the congnitive dissonance that is assumed upon theists.”
Response to Paul…
Agreed. We all like each other & it’s established that nobody dislikes anybody. This conversation is about truth & seeing Paul Burkhart deconvert from the poisonous cult of Christianity to join the Skeptic community.
Paul….
as an old pastor of mine used to say: “every worldview is ultimately circular, it just depends on whose circle you’re in”.
Response to Paul….
Serious logical problems here. This is more Presuppositional propaganda & argumentation. We are excited to thoroughly refute it. The basic presuppositions of every worldview are not equal. The fruits of empiricism & rationalism show our worldviews to be superior to the Christian worldview. Christianity has no monopoly on epistemology & dialectics. We are more than capable of refuting the Presuppositional arguments of the Christians. Where ever you guys want to go with TAG & other presuppostional arguments we can demonstrate that they don’t stand up to scrutiny either.
Positive conclusion….
I like you but don’t like your religion. Hate the sin not the sinner in the words of Gandhi. We hate the Christianity not the Christian. The sooner Paul deconverts then the sooner we can get the Prodigal Paul blog on the right track.
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